Updated Post - Please Read
- Thread starter Hui
- Start date
bobhc
Excel Ninja
Good day Hui and Like
The problem is getting people to read the sticky, perhaps they should have to enter the sticky as part of site registration, a button at the bottom would complete registration, I realize they could still skip reading but I think that most would read once in the sticky, they explain so much about the site and how to get help it is a pity that more do not read them.
The problem is getting people to read the sticky, perhaps they should have to enter the sticky as part of site registration, a button at the bottom would complete registration, I realize they could still skip reading but I think that most would read once in the sticky, they explain so much about the site and how to get help it is a pity that more do not read them.
NARAYANK991
Excel Ninja
Hi All ,
I think we are making too much of an issue in people reading the rules of this forum ; I have said this earlier , and I will repeat it any number of times ; if any of us is offended by a question , no one on earth can force us to answer the question ! Any person posts a question because he / she desperately needs an answer ; if I feel I can answer the question , and if it makes me feel good answering the question , I do so , otherwise I don't ; it's so simple !
I almost never try to force people to follow etiquette , since it in no way helps me.
Anyone who puts off people who may otherwise answer their quesion(s) , will stop after an attempt or two ; who wants to waste their time ?
I think the best answer to anyone who is offensive is silence.
It can also happen that what I think is offensive is my own problem ! What is plain-speaking to one person is offensive to another ; I have seen similar cut and thrust on a lot of other forums ; trying to get Internet users to follow etiquette is just a waste of time.
And finally let us face it ; those who like to answer questions need people who ask , just as those who ask questions need people who like to answer ; if no one asked questions , all of us who like answering would feel a vacuum.
Narayan
I think we are making too much of an issue in people reading the rules of this forum ; I have said this earlier , and I will repeat it any number of times ; if any of us is offended by a question , no one on earth can force us to answer the question ! Any person posts a question because he / she desperately needs an answer ; if I feel I can answer the question , and if it makes me feel good answering the question , I do so , otherwise I don't ; it's so simple !
I almost never try to force people to follow etiquette , since it in no way helps me.
Anyone who puts off people who may otherwise answer their quesion(s) , will stop after an attempt or two ; who wants to waste their time ?
I think the best answer to anyone who is offensive is silence.
It can also happen that what I think is offensive is my own problem ! What is plain-speaking to one person is offensive to another ; I have seen similar cut and thrust on a lot of other forums ; trying to get Internet users to follow etiquette is just a waste of time.
And finally let us face it ; those who like to answer questions need people who ask , just as those who ask questions need people who like to answer ; if no one asked questions , all of us who like answering would feel a vacuum.
Narayan
Debraj
Excel Ninja
Hi Narayan!
In some of your point, I agree with you..
however none of the point mention in the post is directly related to Chandoo.. they all are for normal universal Forum rule.. and at-least every forum is maintain by some Security or "Post waiting for Moderator's Signature", or Captcha or Three-Four checkbox..
Chandoo doesn't have any this type of feature.. So I think.. mentioned rule are useful to "Not to make chandoo" as some normal Blog post.. where people post some personally created problem and asking for help..
and 1st para is fully regarding how to get Best answer.. which may be reduce.."I think the best answer to anyone who is offensive is silence."
There was no boundation of posting your query.. which i think increase "Keep an eye everytime" to make it clean site..
Regards,
Deb
In some of your point, I agree with you..
however none of the point mention in the post is directly related to Chandoo.. they all are for normal universal Forum rule.. and at-least every forum is maintain by some Security or "Post waiting for Moderator's Signature", or Captcha or Three-Four checkbox..
Chandoo doesn't have any this type of feature.. So I think.. mentioned rule are useful to "Not to make chandoo" as some normal Blog post.. where people post some personally created problem and asking for help..
and 1st para is fully regarding how to get Best answer.. which may be reduce.."I think the best answer to anyone who is offensive is silence."
There was no boundation of posting your query.. which i think increase "Keep an eye everytime" to make it clean site..
Regards,
Deb
bobhc
Excel Ninja
Good day NARAYANK991
As I pointed out in my post you can not force people to read the sticky's, there is an old saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink" I agree with your comments and understand your sentiments,.....but there are numerous time that members ask for help in how to do things in the forum and all these question are answered in the sticky's,such as how to upload and members do point them in the right direction to get the answers.
It is not so much with dealing with people who are offensive, your answer to that is the one I think most members would use.
But when Posters double post in the hope of attracting more help I do think that they should be made aware that this is not on, I personally think that this is an insult to those such as yourself who have given their time to answer and the Op does not respond to the first post, but just re-post's
I think I may have constructed my first post weakly, I was just thinking that if you invited new members through a different door(sticky)in to the forum then there is a better chance of them reading the sticky, not guaranteed......but a better chance.
As I pointed out in my post you can not force people to read the sticky's, there is an old saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink" I agree with your comments and understand your sentiments,.....but there are numerous time that members ask for help in how to do things in the forum and all these question are answered in the sticky's,such as how to upload and members do point them in the right direction to get the answers.
It is not so much with dealing with people who are offensive, your answer to that is the one I think most members would use.
But when Posters double post in the hope of attracting more help I do think that they should be made aware that this is not on, I personally think that this is an insult to those such as yourself who have given their time to answer and the Op does not respond to the first post, but just re-post's
I think I may have constructed my first post weakly, I was just thinking that if you invited new members through a different door(sticky)in to the forum then there is a better chance of them reading the sticky, not guaranteed......but a better chance.
I side somewhat with Narayan. For me, the stickeys are more helpful for ME finding them and posting the link to people who didn't know better. There's certainly some etiquette posters can follow which will help people get their post answered more quickly, and/or answered in future (I've got a particular thread in mind where the OP kept expanding the scope of the question and changing parameters...)
I'll generally post reminders for people committing the "sin" of double posting, but give the benefit of doubt that either user a) hit the post button twice due to slow connection or b) couldn't find their thread again.
I try to keep my sarcasm in check most of the time, but if I feel someone is being obstinate about not wanting to look for something themselves, there's always lmgtfy
I'll generally post reminders for people committing the "sin" of double posting, but give the benefit of doubt that either user a) hit the post button twice due to slow connection or b) couldn't find their thread again.
I try to keep my sarcasm in check most of the time, but if I feel someone is being obstinate about not wanting to look for something themselves, there's always lmgtfy
Maybe Bob...but my favorite part of the link is that if you don't already know about it, you're more likely to click on a long link like "http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Excel+Tips" thinking it's just some URL shortener. So, they click on and then get the "oh yeah...duh" message.
NARAYANK991
Excel Ninja
Hi Bob ,
My point in considering offensive posts was that they are the worst possible offence that can be committed in a public forum ; if we can treat such posts with silence , there is really no reason we should treat lesser offences more strongly !
Since I have time to waste , let me put down my beliefs ; since these are beliefs , and not opinions , I would request readers not to waste their time trying to convert me through debate !
Don't Care
1. I don't care whether a poster has introduced himself / herself ; I believe this is a technical help / problem solving forum , and I personally am interested in solving problems ; if I can help , I help. I couldn't care less whether the poster has introduced himself / herself , whether the posted problem is a homework assignment ,...
2. I don't care whether the poster has cross-posted ; if a person wants to post on 15 different forums , either they are desperate for a solution , or they have a lot of time to waste.
3. I don't care whether a person is offensive ; you should read the dialogue that went on / goes on between experts on other forums !
Do Care
1. I do care that the problem has been posted with all possible details which I think I need to try and solve it.
2. I do care that the problem is either difficult enough or interesting enough or that enough time has passed since it was posted , and there have not been any answers ; I feel it is my duty to help people who have taken the trouble to ask.
To highlight the issue of cross-posting , I'll just put down my thoughts on this :
When a question has been posted in this forum , and no answer has been posted , there are two possibilities :
1. Either I know the answer to the question , or I do not.
2. If I know the answer , either I think it necessary that I post a solution / a link to the solution or I don't care.
3. If I think it necessary to post a solution , I do so , period.
4. If I don't care , I move on , period.
5. If I do not know the answer , either the question / problem is interesting enough that I would like to know the answer , or I am not interested.
6. If I am not interested , I move on , period.
7. If the problem is interesting enough , I google and see if I can come across a solution.
8. If I find a solution , I post a link to it , period.
9. If I do not find a solution , I see if I can come up with a solution.
10. If I can come up with a solution , I post the solution , period.
11. If I cannot come up with a solution , I can only wait and see if others can come up with solutions.
In all of the above , I do not find any situation where criticising the OP for cross-posting helps , except increase my number of posts !
Narayan
My point in considering offensive posts was that they are the worst possible offence that can be committed in a public forum ; if we can treat such posts with silence , there is really no reason we should treat lesser offences more strongly !
Since I have time to waste , let me put down my beliefs ; since these are beliefs , and not opinions , I would request readers not to waste their time trying to convert me through debate !
Don't Care
1. I don't care whether a poster has introduced himself / herself ; I believe this is a technical help / problem solving forum , and I personally am interested in solving problems ; if I can help , I help. I couldn't care less whether the poster has introduced himself / herself , whether the posted problem is a homework assignment ,...
2. I don't care whether the poster has cross-posted ; if a person wants to post on 15 different forums , either they are desperate for a solution , or they have a lot of time to waste.
3. I don't care whether a person is offensive ; you should read the dialogue that went on / goes on between experts on other forums !
Do Care
1. I do care that the problem has been posted with all possible details which I think I need to try and solve it.
2. I do care that the problem is either difficult enough or interesting enough or that enough time has passed since it was posted , and there have not been any answers ; I feel it is my duty to help people who have taken the trouble to ask.
To highlight the issue of cross-posting , I'll just put down my thoughts on this :
When a question has been posted in this forum , and no answer has been posted , there are two possibilities :
1. Either I know the answer to the question , or I do not.
2. If I know the answer , either I think it necessary that I post a solution / a link to the solution or I don't care.
3. If I think it necessary to post a solution , I do so , period.
4. If I don't care , I move on , period.
5. If I do not know the answer , either the question / problem is interesting enough that I would like to know the answer , or I am not interested.
6. If I am not interested , I move on , period.
7. If the problem is interesting enough , I google and see if I can come across a solution.
8. If I find a solution , I post a link to it , period.
9. If I do not find a solution , I see if I can come up with a solution.
10. If I can come up with a solution , I post the solution , period.
11. If I cannot come up with a solution , I can only wait and see if others can come up with solutions.
In all of the above , I do not find any situation where criticising the OP for cross-posting helps , except increase my number of posts !
Narayan
bobhc
Excel Ninja
Good day NARAYANK991
I said in a previous post I do agree with much of what you say, and your last post shows you have very strong opinions regarding web forums.
I just feel as strongly about manners and curtsies and I think that if there were no guide line and people did not respect them then things would soon turn into a free for all with anything going and the work of Administrators and Moderators would soon become impossible.
I respect your views as I do with any ones view on a whole host of subjects not just forums but in doing so I would expect those to respect others point of view.
I am not trying to change your view through debate, too much respect, just putting forward mine.
I said in a previous post I do agree with much of what you say, and your last post shows you have very strong opinions regarding web forums.
I just feel as strongly about manners and curtsies and I think that if there were no guide line and people did not respect them then things would soon turn into a free for all with anything going and the work of Administrators and Moderators would soon become impossible.
I respect your views as I do with any ones view on a whole host of subjects not just forums but in doing so I would expect those to respect others point of view.
I am not trying to change your view through debate, too much respect, just putting forward mine.
NARAYANK991
Excel Ninja
Hi Bob ,
No issues ; my point is that my manners do not depend on the other person being well-mannered !
Whether the other person is courteous or not , I can still be courteous ; a free-for-all results when two or more persons are offensive or abusive towards each other ; let us follow the principle "a soft answer turneth away wrath" ; either I ignore posts which are not to my liking or I respond courteously.
There are enough Ninjas on this forum , who can at the click of a mouse delete a post , or even an entire topic.
Narayan
No issues ; my point is that my manners do not depend on the other person being well-mannered !
Whether the other person is courteous or not , I can still be courteous ; a free-for-all results when two or more persons are offensive or abusive towards each other ; let us follow the principle "a soft answer turneth away wrath" ; either I ignore posts which are not to my liking or I respond courteously.
There are enough Ninjas on this forum , who can at the click of a mouse delete a post , or even an entire topic.
Narayan
bobhc
Excel Ninja
Good morning (night?)NARAYANK991
"a soft answer turneth away wrath" now that I like, one to remember. Ideal for email signature the one I am using at the moment "Never argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level - then beat you with experience." is getting a bit tired.
"a soft answer turneth away wrath" now that I like, one to remember. Ideal for email signature the one I am using at the moment "Never argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level - then beat you with experience." is getting a bit tired.
oldchippy
Active Member
Hi all,
My two penuth
Cast your mind back when you first discovered a website where you could get answers to Excel questions - fantastic!
I remember when I was trying to do something in Excel that I knew could be done, but didn't know how to go about it (BTW - that still happens now), it was probably a simple IF() question.
Then I found an Excel forum (not this one) and I was in such an hurry to get my work done that I signed up as a member and posted a question straight away without reading all the rules etc.
I can remember getting an email back within seconds saying someone had replied to my question, only to find out that one of the moderators was giving me a good telling off for not doing a simple search first. I did get an answer to the question in the end, but it did put me off the forum.
I do like this forum and try to visit as often as possible, but please Ninja's don't come down to hard when someone maybe doesn't follow the rules and please be gentle with newcomers, we were all there once.
My two penuth
Cast your mind back when you first discovered a website where you could get answers to Excel questions - fantastic!
I remember when I was trying to do something in Excel that I knew could be done, but didn't know how to go about it (BTW - that still happens now), it was probably a simple IF() question.
Then I found an Excel forum (not this one) and I was in such an hurry to get my work done that I signed up as a member and posted a question straight away without reading all the rules etc.
I can remember getting an email back within seconds saying someone had replied to my question, only to find out that one of the moderators was giving me a good telling off for not doing a simple search first. I did get an answer to the question in the end, but it did put me off the forum.
I do like this forum and try to visit as often as possible, but please Ninja's don't come down to hard when someone maybe doesn't follow the rules and please be gentle with newcomers, we were all there once.
NARAYANK991
Excel Ninja
Hi oldchippy ,
Amen.
Narayan
Amen.
Narayan
Ditto to what oldchippy said. I try to take into account whether a poster is brand new or long time poster. Brand new, yeah, might have just stumbled onto a thread via Google search and not seen anything else yet. Long-time poster...they should know.
Cross posting only irritates me in the fact that I can end up wasting my time. Then again, as Narayan said, I could choose to ignore, and the fact is that I enjoy solving the problems. I'm one of those geeks who loved doing math problems in school. =P
Cross posting only irritates me in the fact that I can end up wasting my time. Then again, as Narayan said, I could choose to ignore, and the fact is that I enjoy solving the problems. I'm one of those geeks who loved doing math problems in school. =P
Very interesting discussion.
@Hui: thanks for taking time to update the rules.
@Other ninjas and commenters on this thread:
I think most of us answering questions derive a lot of pleasure solving a technical problem and comparing notes with fellow Excel users. So as long as you (answerer) is not offended, we should try to help. That means, whether it is a cross posting, simple request with out pleasantries or a gentle bump of thread, we should be ok.
But anytime a poster starts abusing us by doing one of below,
Then we can take some corrective action or warn the member to be more courteous.
Few things we can do to improve the community:
1. New members must be approved by a ninja before they can post
2. New members are invited to join our newsletter (so that they can know more about Chandoo.org and slowly get used to our culture and approach - this is currently done to some extent).
3. New members have to wait a week before asking questions (not sure if this can be implemented in our software).
4. After a member posts 5 questions, send her / him an email with welcome kit for our forum. This includes our rules, hall-of-fame articles, other Excel resources, names of important forum members etc. (this will have to manually done. I can ask one my employees to do it every Monday).
Any other suggestions?
@Hui: thanks for taking time to update the rules.
@Other ninjas and commenters on this thread:
I think most of us answering questions derive a lot of pleasure solving a technical problem and comparing notes with fellow Excel users. So as long as you (answerer) is not offended, we should try to help. That means, whether it is a cross posting, simple request with out pleasantries or a gentle bump of thread, we should be ok.
But anytime a poster starts abusing us by doing one of below,
- Insults you or behaves in a thankless way
- Steer the thread discussion in to some useless direction
Pressure us for a solution by saying this is URGENT, ASAP or some such nonsense
Rude comments etc.
Then we can take some corrective action or warn the member to be more courteous.
Few things we can do to improve the community:
1. New members must be approved by a ninja before they can post
2. New members are invited to join our newsletter (so that they can know more about Chandoo.org and slowly get used to our culture and approach - this is currently done to some extent).
3. New members have to wait a week before asking questions (not sure if this can be implemented in our software).
4. After a member posts 5 questions, send her / him an email with welcome kit for our forum. This includes our rules, hall-of-fame articles, other Excel resources, names of important forum members etc. (this will have to manually done. I can ask one my employees to do it every Monday).
Any other suggestions?
bobhc
Excel Ninja
Good day Chandoo
I agree with your points with the possible exception of number 3, I think this would discourage possible new members.
Number four is a good idea as this could include the basic site rules such as multi posting the same question and post hijacking.
Could the newsletter be setup to auto include new members?
I agree with your points with the possible exception of number 3, I think this would discourage possible new members.
Number four is a good idea as this could include the basic site rules such as multi posting the same question and post hijacking.
Could the newsletter be setup to auto include new members?
Sajan
Excel Ninja
Hi Chandoo,
When I first joined this forum, I was not sure how to post a question! I finally saw the link that said "Topic -- Add New". However, I was not sure if I should be starting a new "topic", since I just wanted to ask a "question"!
Not sure if there is a way to rename that "Topic -- Add New" link to "Ask a question" or something like that, and perhaps make it more prominent. And perhaps when the user clicks on that "Ask a question" link, take them to a screen that offers some basic suggestions on how to phrase the question, what else to consider, etc.
On a slightly tangential note... do folks see value in the "hot topics" links on the left side of the page? If not, then removing that section could make the body stand out further.
-Sajan.
When I first joined this forum, I was not sure how to post a question! I finally saw the link that said "Topic -- Add New". However, I was not sure if I should be starting a new "topic", since I just wanted to ask a "question"!
Not sure if there is a way to rename that "Topic -- Add New" link to "Ask a question" or something like that, and perhaps make it more prominent. And perhaps when the user clicks on that "Ask a question" link, take them to a screen that offers some basic suggestions on how to phrase the question, what else to consider, etc.
On a slightly tangential note... do folks see value in the "hot topics" links on the left side of the page? If not, then removing that section could make the body stand out further.
-Sajan.
SirJB7
Excel Rōnin
@Chandoo
Hi!
Regarding your improvement list let me think out loud:
1) Sometimes maybe there are not any ninja available for X period of time (5', 1h, ...) and maybe there are a lot of members who could answer a question. I believe it'd be very frustrating if being unable to post, that might drive away new people.
An additional problem is the number of new registrations received, most of them from fake or spam users. A couple of weeks ago there were 67K, then I reduced them below 60K, yesterday there were 63K again which I lowered to 53K... who would deal with 3K registrations in 2 weeks, 200 a day? Not me, for sure.
BTW, I sent you a mail regarding this issue. Bumped yesterday.
2) Yes, it sounds good having the chance to join the newsletter.
3) Absolutely not! Check 1)
4) Maybe, but why after 5 posts? Sometimes it's during those first posts when it'll be helpful for new members receiving guidelines.
Regards!
Hi!
Regarding your improvement list let me think out loud:
1) Sometimes maybe there are not any ninja available for X period of time (5', 1h, ...) and maybe there are a lot of members who could answer a question. I believe it'd be very frustrating if being unable to post, that might drive away new people.
An additional problem is the number of new registrations received, most of them from fake or spam users. A couple of weeks ago there were 67K, then I reduced them below 60K, yesterday there were 63K again which I lowered to 53K... who would deal with 3K registrations in 2 weeks, 200 a day? Not me, for sure.
BTW, I sent you a mail regarding this issue. Bumped yesterday.
2) Yes, it sounds good having the chance to join the newsletter.
3) Absolutely not! Check 1)
4) Maybe, but why after 5 posts? Sometimes it's during those first posts when it'll be helpful for new members receiving guidelines.
Regards!
oldchippy
Active Member
@ Chandoo,
I agree with your pointers, except number 3. I would suggest that new members need to be able to post as soon as they are approved by one of the Ninjas as they are obviously keen to get started as they have registered to join.
@ Sajan,
Totally agree with your comment on "Topic -- Add New" link to "Ask a question", but again I would suggest maybe it should say “Click here to ask a question” and should stand out more than it does now, it look a bit lost at the top of the sticky’s
I agree with your pointers, except number 3. I would suggest that new members need to be able to post as soon as they are approved by one of the Ninjas as they are obviously keen to get started as they have registered to join.
@ Sajan,
Totally agree with your comment on "Topic -- Add New" link to "Ask a question", but again I would suggest maybe it should say “Click here to ask a question” and should stand out more than it does now, it look a bit lost at the top of the sticky’s
What about new users join automatically, but get a Captcha for the first 5 or 10 posts,
like 2 + __ = Seven (new numbers each time, as the Admin logins at Chandoo.org get now)
That would allow quick joining
and slow down new spam users
Don't let people know how many posts the Captcha will last to discourage manual spammers
like 2 + __ = Seven (new numbers each time, as the Admin logins at Chandoo.org get now)
That would allow quick joining
and slow down new spam users
Don't let people know how many posts the Captcha will last to discourage manual spammers